What Are App Coins?
Last week Coin Center published a primer on app coins. It is very good.
I particularly like this part:
Open platforms have proved difficult to create because it has been historically difficult to monetize them even if they become successful—by nature they are public goods. Now, however, the developers of a cloud storage service can incorporate a scarce access-token, an appcoin, into the design, distribute that token to users, retain some amount of the token for themselves, and if the platform proves popular, the token (alongside the holdings of the developers) will grow in value and remunerate the developers for providing a public good. This new model challenges the concept of equity as traditionally understood, and carries entirely different risks and rewards.
The idea that we now have a monetization model for creating and maintaining a public good (ie Twitter) is something that makes me incredibly happy and poses all sorts of interesting questions about the future of venture capital.
Comments (Archived):
Two points on this, as I’ve been at the forefront of this emerging phenomenon.1/ “…if the platform proves popular,” That’s a bit understated. Success will need a lot more than popularity. Maybe it’s implied, but sometimes these cryptocurrencies can become popular for the wrong reasons, mainly ones that aren’t sustainable. At the heart of doing this right, there needs to be a viable business model, a compelling utility, a vibrant ecosystem, a transaction-based circular economy, etc. , ie something valuable. If not, this leads to point #2.2/ There will be scams, hypes and failures along the way. These new App-driven companies are like startups at the end of day, and they will experience the same percentage of successes. Many will fail. But those that succeed will be creating some very exciting business models, marketplaces and mini-economies.I believe this trend is a key part of the crypto-based era, and it will create new wealth with it. But, it also comes with risks.
Steem’s price chart plots an interesting journey. It’s a reference for many of the points you make so well.
Roller coaster for sure. Prices can get ahead of reality. But Steem is grinding through it. The upcoming Steemfest in Amsterdam will show the vibrancy of their ecosystem (I’m going to be there & speaking at it).
A lot of money has passed through Steem this year, but not that much is being captured and retained by the ecosystem. It needs a virtuous recycling upgrade or reengineering.
Does the app have to be based on a blockchain, or incorporate a blockchain? I assume the app coin does. Does the app have to be distributed / peer-to-peer?
Either way on the first question. With p2p & distributed Apps, that’s where the innovation is, so it goes hand in hand with it.
Please define “public good”.When are you retiring?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…
there wasn’t a hard date when i entered VC and i doubt there will be a hard date when i exit it. l like to ease in and out of things
MacArthur – “I came through, and I shall return”. 1942. (Escape from the Phillipines).MacArthur – “Old soldiers never die, they just fade away”. 1951. (Farewell address).
Fade to Grey – Visage.
It’s really inspiring and commendable that there are business model structures like Public Benefit Corporations, open source, Bitcoin+Blockchain and now app coins.For centuries there’s been a somewhat black and white war between Capitalism (monopoly / cartel control by a money elite) and Communism (monopoly / cartel control by a government) when what’s been needed are mechanisms to monetize competitively whilst being socially-owned and socially responsible.There are still lots of unknowns and risks but the fact new spectrums of possibilities of monetization, ownership and social inclusion are opening up is a great thing.
between Capitalism (monopoly / cartel control by a money elite)There is an in between state which is comprised of all of the small business people out there who are certainly not the money elite.
True — although, in the old model, small business people were confined to the ownership laws of one locale.So, we grouped together with people in our cities / states / country and we formed businesses. Fred met Jerry and founded a VC firm with him, for example. Next, he and his USV partners met. The legal structures are domiciled in the US.In the Blockchain era, those small businesses might be formed and capitalized by a Fred in the US, a Brad in China, an Andy in Russia and an Albert in Brazil, for example.Where would the domicile be? Which countries’ securities laws are they subject to?
“poses all sorts of interesting questions about the future of venture capital.”Exactomundo –>How Cryptocurrencies and Blockchain-based Startups are Turning the Traditional Venture Capital on its Headhttp://startupmanagement.or…
you are saying that this is already happening it seems.examples please?
It’s not. There is few koolaids as strong as the stuff the cryptocultists are brewing up.
Mycellium, one of the most extended Bitcoin mobile wallets. Last year they raised more than 5k BTC (over 3 mill USD) among 2,5k people for a 5% stake of Mycellium wallet. I would not know if the valuation makes sense or if the investors will ever make money out of this, but the company is indeed working in a ton of new things thanks to that money.
Thanks!
A lot of those investors became very hacked off after the raise ended.
Yeah, I think I read a couple of comments on Reddit, but I haven’t really been following, I mentioned because it was an example that came to mind. However, even if it turns out to be a failure, I think it is an interesting case. This space if full of people who are looking for the next 10-cent-Bitcoin they can buy to get rich, so there will be plenty of them that will get burnt.
The bitcointalk thread was a courtroom of accusations about the reality of the legal status of the asset. I passed on the opportunity.
Many examples.Just look at CoinMarketCap.com and some of them are there. Also https://www.ico-list.com/ and https://icoo.io/But again, you get the good, bad and ugly mix.
Loved your table that compared traditional VC vs. crypto VC. I think it is valuable to see it as another type of equity that can be more easily awarded to the ecosystem in micro-chunks. But… until the tokens are freely tradable, people are willing to accept tokens as payment for a product or service, and they can be exchanged for regular currencies, the path is very murky. But that is indeed the nature of these things and they creep up on you slyly to suddenly emerge as an acceptable market standard. They seem utterly pointless and a pipe-dream until it is not so.
Thank you. And agreed on your assessment of how they unravel.
I would be willing to share a very short (less than 7 slides, to the point and clear deck on this with some family funds I’m going to be working with.Short, sweet and clarifies.
Isn’t a downside to this that the appcoins will only have value within the single platform, ie TwitterCoins? Or will someone come up with a way for multiple platforms to use/share appcoins that can be transferred and have value across platforms?
Appcoin exchanges. Like fiat exchanges.
So it would still require a central exchange where people can decide that their 3 Twittercoins are worth 4 Zyngabux? How does this help the developeres of the platform monetize?
There are decentralised exchanges evolving e.g. Openledger.
I have been thinking for months about how nice it would be if there was a multi-currency ATM card that includes all alternative/local currencies like “Berkshire Bucks” and “Baltimore BNotes” in one connected platform. That way you could earn, spend and hold all your forms of “cream” in one place.
I’m not sure where the limit is between an app coin and a coin (I guess payments not being the main feature?), but I’m involved with a coin project that has such a model (Dash) and have experienced first hand the marvels of this phenomenon.Part of the reward of each Dash block is used to pay for the development of the project (there is also a voting/governance mechanism in the protocol to decide what projects get those funds). I get paid a small amount every month. It doesn’t pay my bills, but it really helps with feeling good about putting time into an open source project and thanks to that we all push harder.The possibilities of this way of funding projects are endless and I’m sure many projects that in the past were not feasible will happen because of it.
State of Illinois is being aggressive about figuring out ways to put blockchain into govt processes. http://www.coindesk.com/ill… eventually, why won’t state, local govt issue their own crypto tokens for certain services?
Can you elaborate what you mean? Like instead of paying contractors money they will issue their own cryptocurrency payment? (i assume you see the problem of letting every govt. act as their own fed / treasury which can print money 🙂 ). As you have a conservative bent, and a very solid financial background that I respect would love to have you elaborate so hopefully I can better understand the insight you are getting at! I read the article and feel like its no the technology that makes most govt. services slow or expensive (in most cases), but ratehr simply policy errors that attempt to achieve too much (i.e. in case of mandated insurances to “protect” certain people or situations, but then improperly pricing the insurance. no blockchain will fix the mispricing or overpromising of benefits which is probably 90%+ of govt problems, which knowing your political comments I would think you would agree). Curious what I am missing! thanks
Hard to know exactly. http://pointsandfigures.com… Maybe you get a cryptocoin for an ID? Maybe you get cryptocoin as a voucher if they institute school choice. Maybe blockchain tracks the path of payments-bringing transparency to where the cash actually goes and who’s hands it winds up in.One thing you might not know about Illinois is how amazingly corrupt it is. There are scads of patronage jobs layered in every single part of government. Check out michaelmadigan.com, and watch the movie for full understanding. I saw the movie last night-and the thing that most disgusted me wasn’t the blatant corruption and disregard for citizens-it was the attitude of former speaker of the house Lee Daniels (R) and his apparent jealousy.Many politicians talk about shrinking govt, good govt, efficient govt. Instead of doing it, they throw bodies at it. Bitcoin/Blockchain and other SaaS companies can change that-enabling citizens to take control of their lives.
Appreciate the detailed response. Will have to watch the movie, but pretty politically up to date and definitely know how corrupt illinois is and about madigan’s power. I like the point about bringing transparency through cryto, not some sort of direct financial savings. I think that line has legs. So i kinda get where you are coming from. The bigger issue is that corruption benefits a TON of people (probably public unions more than anyone else, and obviously family members of the politicians), so I think that the crypto is only a very small part of fixing the govt., but nonetheless might not hurt. I am in agreement with you politically in terms of political corruption and govt bloat… Only state that probably rivals illinois would be new jersey. If i could short two states in the country they would be the two 🙂 I don’t actively trade stocks or bonds and certainly not individual muni securities but with your trading background I am curious if you can both legally and practically can you short muni or any govt agency bonds in those states? Wasn’t sure if they make it so that you can’t “borrow” them from a brokerage to short.. seems like a good trade if you can execute it 🙂
Shorting munis is probably impossible. You might be able to follow a strategy like The Big Short but there is a myriad of ways for IL to stop actual bankruptcy even though it is physically bankrupt
You could hypothetically structure a credit default swap that lets you have short exposure. Apparently Markit created an CDS index.
correct, a la Big Short. I am not sure of the legalities around shorting agency debt. Shorting US Treasuries is easy. Shorting corporates a bit tougher. Never did it, and if I was so sure that a particular muni was going to 0 might be better to buy puts on the S+P and save yourself the hassle.
Yeah. Would be interesting to see in the case of muni’s at the city level like detroit and stockton california if there were any who shorted and if they had prospered. But makes sense that the govt. would do about all possible to not allow that to happen at any sort of scale.
Looking at a state’s pension liability ratio is a good proxy for how efficiently a state government allocates its capital. As you are aware, Illinois is one of the worst.This report shows how each state stands. It is ugly on a national scale.https://www.alec.org/app/up…The federal reserve also has charts dating back to right after the internet bubble collapse. You’ll see how states recovered roughly in line with equities leading up to the Great Recession. The recovery in state pension funding did not take place nearly to the same degree after the Great Recession compared to equity’s performance.https://www.federalreserve….
It sounds like app coin would be product as equity, and founders /workers may generate wealth doubly. How widely could this model be applied?
“ie Twitter” or “eg Twitter”?
.Sister Anne de Beaupre (very short Catholic school English teacher with a wicked left handed swat with a yard stick) would tell you that “i.e.” (in essence) is used for clarification while “e.g.” is used to site a specific example.In the day she would also tell you that using a “comma” after “i.e.” or “e.g.” is the real debate.Both are correct.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
“i.e” = “id est” (Latin) = “that is”. No ?First time I have heard “in essence”….
.Having taken 6 semesters of Latin, I agree with you. That is a way to remember the meaning and usage.i isti it imus istis eruntI read the Gallic and Punic Wars in Latin. Why I think I became a soldier.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
Interesting….I have always spoken “that is” when writing (or reading) ‘i.e’..
Wait … you can quote tracts of Henry V AND know Latin?!Those are unfair advantages right there!
.There are Sister of Charity in Heaven (one might not have made it) who are applauding you.JLMwww.themusingfofthebigredca…
i.e. is used to list the only examples of what you stated.e.g. is used denote some examples but not an exhaustive list.Fred should have used e.g. The Oatmeal clarifies the difference between i.e. and e.g. well.http://theoatmeal.com/comic…
Judging from the Twitter story, it is more of a public (and private) bad. Just because they can’t make any money doesn’t make it a charity. It’s time to steemit!
.At the end of the day, this is a glorified player/customer loyalty program, an idea which has been around for almost a century (remember Green Stamps) in which usage conveys some long term benefit and thereby encourages/drives incremental usage.As an idea, it is tried and true. I carry or participate in more than ten such programs. I like the ones that are digital in which I just have to enter my ID or email @ a POS (point of sale). I patronize a BBQ joint, a car wash, a coffee shop, a taco joint for their programs.The fact that the reward is akin to usage is similar to a co-op (e.g. REI) in which a portion of your patronage is credited against your account. Again, a long-toothed concept.It seems terribly “inside baseball” to ever have any widespread application of a meaningful magnitude.New wine. Old jugs. Your generation did not invent sex.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
(remember Green Stamps)Definitely. Remember licking the stamps for my parents and putting them in books. Appeals to the aspy in all of us.As an idea, it is tried and true. I carry or participate in more than ten such programs.However per my other comment these work because you are disassociated from the reward by way of some kind of a proxy in between ‘book of stamps which grows in size’. The closer someone is to seeing how much they really get for the effort the less likely they will take advantage of it.For example [1] if you tell someone “If you get 1000 marbles you get $10” is better than telling them that you will give them $.05.[1] In addition to my ‘attorney won’t take $75/hr but will do it for free’ in my other comment
The message (loyalty and sense of ownership) is the same and the medium (Blockchain) has changed.True invention would involve simultaneously changing the message and the medium OR, better yet … making a warp-speed space ship that can jump Black Holes and Multiverses when everyone else is building faster and faster cars. LOL.For practical business reasons, Blockchain folks should execute on tried+tested messages.They have enough issues with PR and people understanding anything “crypto” that tapping into existing mental reference frames to Green Stamps is a good thing.
.There is something to be said for building on the past. What Blockchain continues to suffer from is the absence of a killer app.Recently, Commonwealth Bank of Australia and Wells Fargo made a lot of hoopla about a Chinese commodity transaction (Australian HQ of a Texas subsidiary cotton dealer for 88 bales worth $35K) they were involved in which used the blockchain to settle.http://fortune.com/2016/10/…The article stands for the proposition this is a big difference v letters of credit, receivers, etc. It is different but a big improvement remains to be delivered.If this is the future, it’s not all that exciting. Still, it is a real deal and that counts for something.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
Well … banking as a business is not as exciting as, say, the media or entertainment, right?So maybe Blockchain doesn’t need to be exciting. It just needs to be like plumbing and wiring that works.
Irresponsible banking was fun (for them) during the previous years until the 2008 grand finale, maybe blockchain needs a few more scandals. 🙂
Well … banking as a business is not as exciting as, say, the media or entertainment, right?Wash your mouth out with soap.
Ha! Banking is supposed to be these things: secure, reliable and compliant.Can we name any bankers who look and act like Trump, Kanye West, Maroon5, Lady Gaga or Nicki Minaj?
Bullseye.No need to be sexy.
What Blockchain continues to suffer from is the absence of a killer app.I don’t agree with that. Payments is a huge killer app if done right! I think it is an execution problem of an industry that keeps churning out almost impossible to use solutions. But I really believe that someone will come up with something so obvious that all us will cry in pain because we didn’t see that before.
.I agree with you that payments SHOULD be a killer app but, thus far, it is not.The commodity transaction I mentioned — cotton from Texas to China via ship — is an example of something that could be streamlined because it uses letters of credit, bills of lading, receivers, etc.However, the vast majority of payments cannot really be simplified. I use Amazon, as an example, and can’t possibly be happier.A philosophical error is that “folks” want to cut out the middlemen, that there will be some efficiency created by removing the middlemen.I want the middlemen — Wells Fargo, Charles Schwab, USAA, Visa, Amazon — in the middle for exactly the services they provide — ensuring a deal goes through and is not a scam while providing a shadow customer care program disciplined by their financial muscle.I agree with you that there will be the PERFECT application one day but only if it happens pretty damn quick. Right now, all the competitors to blockchain are improving their services and the “existing condition” blockchain is working against is an upwardly moving target.My personal favorite is property records.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
Amen to the MiddlemenI’d love to see blockchain title searches too, possibly lighter “closing costs” on mortgages
Actually as you know I have a little bit of knowledge about this: 1793 in the U.S.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…Around 1810 in England.Two centuries.Coalitions are tough to get off the ground and tough to sustain. But they can be very profitable. Which is what they are talking about when they say open platforms.Inevitably you have three problems:1. The biggest player says I want a bigger share2. The smaller players say I don’t want people earning from me and burning elsewhere3. The provider gets squeezed.
.Yes. You. Do. Experience.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
The main killer app for bitcoin is of course speculating on the value of bitcoin. Once some ETFs gain approval, that will open the floodgates for better or worse. But this is boring, and does not prove the fundamental value of bitcoin at all.You’ll see the first non-financial killer apps in computer games with virtual property. Deckbound is one such app which already exists in beta. It uses bitcoin to store ownership info for collectible trading cards (think MtG or Hearthstone, both multi-$bn empires). Deckbound, as well as its virtual property protocol bitbind.io, is ignored by bitcoin nuts as well as mainstream VCs. But I predict the developers will do well for themselves, and the use of this protocol will drive a certain amount of bitcoin demand.I am just recording my prediction here to to persuade, but so I can say “I told you so” in about a year from now. If you’d care to make it interesting, I’ll try to save a nice crisp $20 bill (USD, not funny money).
.Zeke, an “app” is not a “killer app.” Speculating on the price of tulips — oops, bitcoin — is not a killer app.I will take your bet but I know you’re not really enthusiastic, know why?If you were enthusiastic, you’d have bet BITCOIN.No killer app by 1 November 2017 for $20 (or alternatively, a Green Mesquite Barbecue 3-meat plate with two Peacemakers and blueberry cobbler with Blue Bell vanilla). I like a lot of crust on my cobbler, so tell them to cut it from the corner of the pan.It has to be a KILLER app.Game on.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
It’s a deal, I will make myself a calendar reminder!(Also I don’t believe in bitcoin-denominated bets b/c bitcoin is already risky enough without packaging it into a derivative contract!)
.Luckily I was not drinking when I read your comment, Zeke.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…
will grow in value and remunerate the developers for providing a public good.Ok so how much will they make? The reason is there is a pretty well known ‘behavioral irony’ that a person will do for free what they won’t do if only paid a small amount. An example of this might be pro bono legal work. An attorney will for free what he would never charge $75 per hour for.
App coins are going to be big. Ethereum is arguably the most successful app coin thus far, though the line between an access token and a cryptocurrency is not going to be distinct.
I hereby give to this community the concept of “Swellness as a Service”Built on the “Swellchain”, the Swellness protocol will reward acts of swellness – everything from mowing lawns to moderating a community bulletin board to saving the environment. As people are swell to one another, they verify the transaction via the swellchain.Are you a corporation looking for swell employees? Check out our swellness as a service candidate filter! Are a swell person looking for a job? Use our “verification of swellness” feature to beef up that LinkedIn profile! Corporate Social Responsibility getting you down? Reward your employees for swell acts via our ERP integration!Here’s my whiteboard on the subject… Go ahead, be swell… https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
Haha, that’s totally brilliant and LOL. Thanks!
I recommend Fred Ehrsam’s talk this last weekend at the Silicon Valley Ethereum meetup: https://t.co/t1qHnrnzCz
This makes me think of real estate as the original app coin.The public good (even if its often not unanimously accepted as such) is transforming a building, a block, community, or city; the private gain comes from appreciation in the underlying asset.
William Mougayar:Off Topic:The Xiaomi Mi Note 2 is a Galaxy Note 7 without the battery issues. What are you thoughts?Xiaomi Mi Note 2 Display. 5.70-inch. Processor. quad-core. Front Camera. 8-megapixel. (A negative) Resolution. 1080×1920 pixels. RAM. 4GB. OS. Android. Storage. 64GB. Rear Camera. 22.56-megapixel.
Is this the Mi Mix? A 6.4″ screen in a 5.5″ form factor.
jason wright:The specs posted if read is a 5.7 inch screen. Way short of your 6.4 screen comparison.
Jason wright:The Xiaomi Mi Note 2 specs posted are way short of the 6.4 Xiaomi Mix comparison you are inquiring. The Xiaomi company could be rebranding with a larger screen. But that is much too large for our use. 15in Computer, 10″ tablet and 5.5 inch phone is enough already.The phone needs to fit in a pocket.
Sounds like a nice new way to get developers to carry more of the risk of someone’s investment not working out. You’d only advocate tokens if they were cheaper than putting in the required capital.
Wasn’t Second Life an early example of this?
I think it is, but not from the point of view of its currency, the Linden. The valuable token is virtual real estate. It is an amazing case study.
That’s an important point — real estate is another way to monetize, which is distinct from tokens. Urbit, e.g., intends to monetize based on scarce address space. Transactions with real estate (or bandwidth, or address space) tend to be less frequent, and less fungible, than tokens / money. So a distinct but also potentially interesting way to make money.
Will you agree on that the virtual nature of Second Life’s land, that was ‘issued’ by the game creators, falls in an intermediate category? OK, it is less fungible that coins inside the virtual world, as it has a non interchangeable ‘physical’ representation there, but observed from the outer real world, it may be seen as valued tokens. What do you think?
Well it is certainly more fungible than physical real estate!
This is a pretty good example of where distributed payment would be useful in the zero-trust world where the source code for your service is freely available. I just wish the piece had focused more on the logic behind this statement:”if the platform proves popular, the token (alongside the holdings of the developers) will grow in value”How? Why? It seems like this this scarce token would need to be tradable for some other scarce resource, perhaps priority/features in the app? However, doing that in an incentive compatible and scalable fashion certainly adds complexity to the app design.I can see this as coexisting or being an alternative to the traditional open source business model of ‘free software, paid services’. Also, if it get’s popular the value of knowledge of game theory will go up.
Though I will also say. The use of App Coins doesn’t really have much to do with ‘public goods’.There’s not much difference between an App Coin and say, Xbox Live Points except for the requirement that they be cryptographically secure because you have source-code-level access to the relevant APIs.Even then, you could do a centrally managed version of in-app-credits, but this does reduce the barrier to entry.
Effectively, open platforms could become their own mini nations with the ability to mint their own currency.I guess “debasing” could become an issue. Whereas in traditional equity funding structures, shareholder agreements generally regulate the quantity of available shares (in and of themselves a scarce resource) and the right of access to future funding rounds, in the case appcoins some kind of regulatory mechanism would have to be put in place limiting the maximum amount of issuable tokens to maintain trust in the system.Either way, fascinating stuff.
I feel so cemented in an old-fashioned paradigm when trying to understand Bitcoin stuff. So tell me, am I correct in believing the blockchain, which is a service, seems to be the most easily (globally) adaptable component compared to any “coin” monetary value. If so, I figure a mechanism for allocating a monetary value to each use of a blockchain rather than its participating bitcoins will make the big buck$. (Should I have written this on a chalkboard? 🙂